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That didn't contradict the quoted point in the slightest. I said there is no direct conflict between Ansem/Xehanort or Xemnas with Maleficent. Your quoted wikia article did not contradict this. Though their forces fight (Heartless vs Nobodies) Maleficent never fights them directly. Contact? Yes. Conflict? No.
Lets see here, Master Xehanort IS Ansem and Xemnas. If you would read up news on anything you would know that.
*Proceeds with history lesson* Master Xehanort wanted to lure Terra into darkness to take his heart and body, but when he did Terras heart and (soul?) entered his armor and fought Xehanort and won. But, Xehanort survived with no memories.
He wandered around for awhile before Braig fround him and tried to remind him of his plan. Thus Xehanort took on the name Ansem. He became a Heartless/Nobody and became Ansem/Xemnas.
*History lesson over*
Now on to the conflict; now I may be wrong but when Ansem took over Rikus body there was a very small fight between the two. If I am wrong then I apologize on behalf of that.
Ah. Maybe it is you who need the history lesson. There was no fight. Riku/Ansem did Maleficent a favor by unlocking the darkness in her heart, allowing it to overflow and fill her with a power the likes of which she hadn't known before. It was not a fight. Replay KH1, read the wikia, whatever.
There. Was. No. Conflict.
As for birth by sleep: I'm not offended because like you, I read up on it. However, by giving away spoilers you're potentially ruining the up and coming experience for everyone else. But since we're on the topic. Xehanort took Terra's body AND heart. Three hearts inhabited the same body, since Erauqs heart was sealed within Terra's. only Terra's soul remained in the armor. not his heart.
Not new information on this site. But now that you refreshed my memory about what Ansem and Maleficen did I apologize, it has been some time since I've played or read about KH 1.
And the thing about Terra/Xehanort. A simple reverse of knowledge, no need to get all cocky about it.
You people are all mistaken the most powerful thing was the one winged angel... Ehhh... Clouds darkness or somthing... Sort of the other him... Now that guy IS hard! Hardcore that is... I still don't understand what girls have on evil/tough/bad boy style, that they like it so much ._.
Post by spiralnemesis on Jun 7, 2010 19:41:12 GMT -4
Actually, Oogie, while I will agree that SeeD's arguments aren't really contradicting your points, I could certainly argue that there's a pretty significant difference in power between Maleficent and Xemnas. As for the difference between her and Ansem/Xehanort's Heartless, I'd say that the gap in power is still there, but it isn't quite as extreme as the one between her and Xemnas. When it comes to Xehanort's Heartless, Sora fought and defeated both of them, seemingly rather handily. However, there wasn't really much in the way of concrete power levels for the Kingdom Hearts universe back then, so it's hard to determine for sure just how much stronger Xehanort's Heartless was. We don't really have much in the way of cut-scenes depicting fights, so all there is to go by is the fact that both were beaten by Sora. That doesn't help, either, because pretty much every boss in the game was.
I guess my main argument for Ansem/Xehanort's Heartless being stronger than Maleficent is simply that he comes across as generally more threatening. He's beaten down three times before he's finally finished off, attacks Sora with one of the largest bosses in the entire series, and can manifest his power in the form of his own Guardian. Maleficent attacks with some meteors and levitates a platform, then turns into a fire breathing dragon. Of course, I wouldn't try to claim that Maleficent wasn't quite threatening in her own right, but these are things that heroes face every other day. Sora didn't seem to have any problem beating her down two times in a row, at least. Hell, she even needed her heart unlocked by Rikunort to keep fighting because she was pretty much inches from death after the first beating she took.
When it comes to Xemnas, however, there's just no competition. At least, not when it comes to Xemnas Post-Kingdom Hearts Absorption. Even Base Xemnas was powerful enough to scare the rest of the Organization- twelve very threatening opponents themselves- into submission. However, Zebra Xemnas took the combined force of Sora and Riku to defeat. Now, by the end of Kingdom Hearts 2, those two had both become ridiculously powerful. Based on Sora's feats in the (mostly mandatory) Reaction Commands, such as slicing through skyscrapers like a knife through butter and uppercutting a dragon into the air, his physical abilities seem to be on par with the Sephiroth we saw in Advent Children. Assuming Riku is equal to him in overall capability, that means that it took the combined power of two Sephiroth-level powerhouses to BARELY pull out a win against him.
I will admit, Base Xemnas is a bit tougher to make an argument for. All he really does in KH2 is intimidate the Organization (impressive credential) and get his ass kicked by Sora (not as impressive). However, if we take Final Mix into account, then he pretty much just tested the same Sora who defeated Maleficent twice in a row and still walked away rather unscathed. While it's true that Maleficent is pretty damn strong, I very much doubt that she would have posed a legitimate threat to Sora. I mean, come on, the kid was a beast by then. Opponents like Genie Jafar- who he had to defeat through alternate means in KH1 (specifically, attacking the lamp)- he was simply able to overpower in KH2. I doubt Maleficent would've been a good primary villain as opposed to Organization XIII. She's been "The Dragon", literally and figuratively, since Day 1.
A much better argument. But it relies too much on gameplay rather than lore. Lore-wise, I'd have to say that Maleficent is closer to par with Ansem and not too far behind Xemnas. Now, Master Xenhanort (the combination of the two with FULL memories) would be utterly beyond her. But Maleficent carries with her not only a lot of power, but an incredible variety of things she is capable of doing with that power. But when you throw the "Final Mix" bosses in... most of those appear much more powerful in those sneak preveiws than they really are by the time you get to the games they actually participate in. Take the Lingering Sentiment, for example. A boss featured in KH2 FM+. He was godly powerful, when in reality, he couldn't be all THAT much stronger than Sora, since come Birth by Sleep, he'll be a playable character who hasn't even earned the title "master" yet. Does that mean he's a push over? Hell no. Of the three apprentices, he's the one with the most bang for your buck physical strength and beat-down power. i'm just drawing attention to the fact that the final mix bosses tended to be on the strong side to offer players a challenge. The same logic can be applied to the untransformed "unknown". Again, that doesn't mean he's a pushover, but it also doesn't put him league ahead of Maleficent.
Well, there's a reason why the optional bosses are superbosses, they are bonus stuff that are way stronger than the game's finals bosses. Lol, Sephiroth could easily rape 10 times Uber Xemnas by himself according to how Sephy is a lot harder than uber xemnas.
Leaving aside silly game mechanics, both Ansem and Xemnas had the advantage of fighting in places that were overflowing with their elements of darkness and nothingness and both of them received epic power boosts.
Also, original Maleficient could become a dragon by her own powers in Diney's Sleeping Beauty, it was just a silly KH thing what made her need an extra add on to become a dragon in the game.
Post by spiralnemesis on Jun 7, 2010 22:09:34 GMT -4
Well, Birth By Sleep is already out, and I would argue that Sora is actually quite a bit stronger than Terra is by the end of KH2. Or, if nothing else, edges out Terra by a little bit. I mean, at the end of their fight during FM+, neither of them really seemed all that tired. I imagine it was more that the fight just ended when the Lingering Sentiment realized that Sora wasn't Xehanort. People have this bizarre tendency to underestimate Sora; I'd say that he's definitely one of the strongest characters in the KH Universe by Kingdom Hearts 2's end. He and Riku are definitely on par with the likes of Xehanort, Terra, etc., considering all the feats they pull off in the cutscene-esque Reaction Commands. And just to clarify my stance on Reaction Commands, I consider it canon if you don't have to go out of your way to have it appear- especially if it's mandatory (in other words, Sora/Riku HAS to destroy a couple skyscrapers to complete the game).
But more to the point, I would say that Master Xehanort is above Xehanort's Heartless in power but beneath Xemnas. So yes, he would be above Maleficent. But in regards to Maleficent compared to Xehanort's Heartless, it's less that XH has any particularly impressive feats of strength to his name and more that Maleficent doesn't really have many. She slowly and subtly manipulates Riku, whereas XH just outright possesses him. Her control over Darkness is comparatively limited (Dark Magic and command over lesser Heartless), while XH can pull off advanced tricks like manifesting a Guardian and bonding himself to World of Chaos. In addition, Xehanort's Heartless was beaten three times before he was finally too weak to continue fighting. Maleficent was pounded within an inch of her life after one battle against Sora and had to be re-energized by Rikunort's fake Keyblade.
When it comes to bosses in the Final Mix Games...well, yes, their strength in game play is rather exaggerated. And of course, a character's power in game play is not a good indication of their strength in the storyline. After all, Demyx and Xaldin are two of the more challenging fights in the main story, but they don't seem all that powerful compared to other members of the Organization. However, I'm referring more to the cutscenes before and after the fight against Xemnas in Final Mix. He just didn't seem to be taking the fight all that seriously and was visibly more interested in testing Sora. We actually see him attack before the gameplay begins, and while Sora deflects his energy beam, it appears to take a good deal of effort from him. After gameplay ends, Sora takes a swing at Xemnas, but his Keyblade just kind of phases through as Xemnas continued to taunt him. That sort of leads me to believe that, at that point, Xemnas was at least slightly stronger than Sora. Also, when there aren't any out-of-gameplay fight scenes to go by, all you can really do is compare their attacks in-battle.
Getting back to Maleficent, though, she seems to be more focused on manipulation than outright domination through raw power. Even though she had a considerable amount of strength herself, it wasn't even enough to take on Sora in Kingdom Hearts 1. She may be close to Xehanort's Heartless in overall power, but I couldn't have seen her usurping his position as the main villain of the first game. Further, I really don't see her control over the Heartless superseding XH's ability to manipulate Darkness as a whole. Considering how easily he takes command of a massive Heartless battleship like World of Chaos, I'm thinking the Heartless would've gone to his side given a choice between Maleficent and XH.
Edit: In response to Raidou, not to make this post more long-winded, but I feel it's worth mentioning that Uber Xemnas could've just bound Sephiroth using the same attack he used to restrain Sora. Without an ally to free him, Sephiroth would TECHNICALLY even lose in gameplay. ^^;; Just throwing in my two cents on that front.
Sora only fought Lingering Sentiment, not Terra. The Sentiment is merely a discarded suit of armor containing the remnants of Terra's soul. In other words, an empty shell. The fact that Terra was able to generate the Lingering Sentiment proves that not only was his heart strong in its desire to stop Xehanort, but also his abilities are more varied if not superior to Sora.
The World was Chaos was the name of Ansem's final form. It was Ansem. Not something he merely bonded with.
It stands to reason that original beings are generally more powerful that the heartless and nobodies they produce. After all, In KH coded, Sora defeated his own heartless, and even though he never physically fought, defeated Roxas through overwhelming will which manifested as an internal battle within Sora. That, and Xemnas had to work to lure Kingdom Hearts to TWTNW. Master Xehanort simply summoned it. Ansem had power over darkness. Xemnas over nothingness. Master Xehanort proved to have power over pretty much everything. I'd like to think that would mean that Master Xehanort's whole is much stronger than the sum of his parts. That considered, he took Terra by surprise and possessed him, which is when Lingering Sentiment was born... which proceeded to kick Master Xehanort's rear, leading us to believe that even Terra is much more powerful that gameplay would let us see if his mere left over armor has that much power.
As for Maleficent's preference to manipulate... Anyone can force you to do something. The truly mighty get you to do it willingly.
Sora only fought Lingering Sentiment, not Terra. The Sentiment is merely a discarded suit of armor containing the remnants of Terra's soul. In other words, an empty shell. The fact that Terra was able to generate the Lingering Sentiment proves that not only was his heart strong in its desire to stop Xehanort, but also his abilities are more varied if not superior to Sora.
Well, you sort of answered this yourself later, but Lingering Sentiment seems to have all the strength of Terra. At least, it uses all of his attacks from him while he's at his strongest. I will give you that his abilities are more varied than Sora's, but I don't think they're stronger. Terra/Lingering Sentiment has more experience with the Keyblade's finer nuances than Sora does, which I interpret as the reason why he's able to pull off all those fancy stunts. Actually, I noticed that a lot of Terra's attacks are just more developed versions of Sora's. But that's neither here nor there. I've always taken Sora to be a fighter who relies on raw strength and speed rather than elaborate techniques. An Olympic Athlete compared to an expert martial artist, if you will. Terra has far better technique, but Sora is the one who can smash skyscrapers and uppercut dragons. If that makes any sense. I rank Terra and Sora roughly equal in OVERALL ability, though.
The World was Chaos was the name of Ansem's final form. It was Ansem. Not something he merely bonded with.
I've read that it wasn't part of Ansem/Xehanort's Heartless at all, but if that's the case, then it really just helps my argument that his power dwarfs that of Maleficent. I mean, Xehanort's Heartless can just manifest something as powerful as World of Chaos, meaning that he did that under his own power. Maleficent's dragon form- which was, again, obtained with the help of Xehanort's Heartless- doesn't really seem to measure up anymore. Just look at the things Xehanort's Heartless accomplishes compared to Maleficent. Examining their attacks in battle shows just how much bigger in scope Ansem's are. Maleficent just never displays the raw power that Xehanort's Heartless does. I mean, you can talk about how Xehanort's Heartless isn't all that impressive, but I simply haven't seen any instances of Maleficent displaying power that surpasses his.
It stands to reason that original beings are generally more powerful that the heartless and nobodies they produce. After all, In KH coded, Sora defeated his own heartless, and even though he never physically fought, defeated Roxas through overwhelming will which manifested as an internal battle within Sora. That, and Xemnas had to work to lure Kingdom Hearts to TWTNW. Master Xehanort simply summoned it. Ansem had power over darkness. Xemnas over nothingness. Master Xehanort proved to have power over pretty much everything. I'd like to think that would mean that Master Xehanort's whole is much stronger than the sum of his parts. That considered, he took Terra by surprise and possessed him, which is when Lingering Sentiment was born... which proceeded to kick Master Xehanort's rear, leading us to believe that even Terra is much more powerful that gameplay would let us see if his mere left over armor has that much power.
In regards to that...I would say it depends heavily on the individual. Remember, when Sora and Roxas fought, they were pretty much on even terms with one another. And, furthermore, Sora clearly wasn't complete because his Nobody was standing right there as his opponent. You can't really use that as an argument because both Sora and Roxas were, at that point, two halves of a whole. Sora wasn't complete until after that battle when Roxas joined with him. In regards to Xemnas...If I remember correctly, I think he was just trying to strengthen Kingdom Hearts by collecting an abnormal number of hearts for it. As for Master Xehanort, I believe it was stated that he wanted to use Terra's body so that he could live long enough to see his plan to obtain Kingdom Hearts come to fruition. I don't think he could just casually summon Kingdom Hearts- I remember reading that the Heart Moon we see isn't the REAL Kingdom Hearts, in any case.
Edit: However, it's worth mentioning that, if it is the real Kingdom Hearts, that doesn't necessarily mean that Master Xehanort was more powerful than Xemnas. It just means that he knew more about how to draw Kingdom Hearts toward him. He was, after all, pretty old and knowledgeable. I took that more as a specific technique. "Summon Materia: Kingdom Hearts", in other words. By that logic, every summoner is instantly more powerful than the creature he/she summons...which kinda defeats the purpose of summoning them in the first place. ^^; In other words, I base things like this off of feats of pure power, whose effects can be accurately applied to a combat situation.
But yeah, I don't really think complete beings are always more powerful than their Nobodies/Heartless. After all, I don't remember ever seeing any evidence that the other Apprentices were all that powerful in the first place. I believe gaining powers is something that just automatically happens when you become a Nobody, regardless of how powerful you were when you were a complete being. When you think about it, it makes sense; otherwise, I'd be expected to believe that every Tom, Dick, and Harry who became a Samurai Nobody were master swordsmen before becoming Nobodies. In other words, I'm pretty sure the strength of a complete being is unrelated to the strength of their Nobody. Can a complete being be more powerful? Of course. But it's not a given.
When it comes to Terra/Lingering Sentiment, I believe it's worth noting that Lingering Sentiment was able to defeat Master Xehanort in Terra's body just fine, leading me to believe that Lingering Sentiment is just as powerful as Terra himself. I suppose it's not worth much here, but it does play into my other argument that Sora is at least as strong as Terra is.
As for Maleficent's preference to manipulate... Anyone can force you to do something. The truly mighty get you to do it willingly.
Of course, but that's not what I'm arguing. I'm saying that, because Maleficent lacks the raw power of Xehanort's Heartless or Xemnas, she wouldn't make as good of an endboss for a Kingdom Hearts game. Remember, Sora isn't exactly the sort of jaded cynic who can be easily coerced into joining the side of darkness. That Keyblade of his belongs to him because of his strong heart, remember. So in the end, it still comes down to who can pose the greatest physical threat to Sora.
Terra's strength is more than just that of his body. In the universe of KH, strength is not only the physical, but also derived from the heart. Though Terra was plagued by darkness, it is revealed in the end of BBS that his heart was incredibly strong alone. The fact that it harbored Erauqs's as well made it doubly so. however, those hearts were not at Xehanort's disposal.
What Xehanort summon Kingdom hearts with was his own darkness.
Xehanort is not after Kingdom heart ultimately. He's after the knowledge of what happened with the keyblade wars. What was so important. To do that, he summons kingdom hearts to attempt to resurrect the warriors, restarting the war. To do that, he needs to create the X-vlade (pronounced chi-blade, like the greek letter) via Ventus and Vanitas. As for Sora and Terra's strength, blow for blow, not only were Terra's attacks more finessed, but also dealt much more damage. He also carried much more health. Sora is the overall better warrior, mostly because of the derivation of strength from his own pure heart. But there is a big difference between being the better warrior and being the stronger.
And course not every whole is going to be stronger than its nobody/heartless. however, it appears that the stronger the warrior when it fell, the stronger the creature created... but still not as strong as the original.
Sora and Roxas were not physically in the same place. Roxas had already been absorbed. The entire fight was the resistance of Roxas' will still within Sora, since will is what give a Nobody its existence. Sora's however, overwhelmed Roxas. At which point Roxas was not simply "absorbed" but fully integrated.
(VIEWER DISCRETION ADVISED)<---------- (Felt like writing that, but don't know why)
Jesus... You people really like to talk about KH or you're bored and have a lot of time in you're hands... w/e the point in all this is, it will all come to this, that light will always win ^^ So to end all this:
- Sora k/ass and Roxas well we all know what he does <_< (XD) *coughRox-assCough*
Terra's strength is more than just that of his body. In the universe of KH, strength is not only the physical, but also derived from the heart. Though Terra was plagued by darkness, it is revealed in the end of BBS that his heart was incredibly strong alone. The fact that it harbored Erauqs's as well made it doubly so. however, those hearts were not at Xehanort's disposal.
Both characters wield the Keyblade, you know. That, in and of itself, means that both of them possess ridiculously strong hearts. In fact, the Keyblade pretty much directly converts the strength of one's heart into physical strength. However, while Terra resisted the Darkness that plagued him, I'd still say that Sora had a stronger heart. I don't remember Sora ever once giving in to the Darkness at any point. Despite some periods of self-doubt here and there, Sora remains optimistic and consistently determined throughout the whole game. And considering he's facing a universe teeming with Heartless as well as a group of insanely powerful Nobodies, I'd say that counts for a lot. Especially considering he doesn't generally receive any direct help from the other Keyblade Wielders for much of the game.
What Xehanort summon Kingdom hearts with was his own darkness.
Xehanort is not after Kingdom heart ultimately. He's after the knowledge of what happened with the keyblade wars. What was so important. To do that, he summons kingdom hearts to attempt to resurrect the warriors, restarting the war. To do that, he needs to create the X-vlade (pronounced chi-blade, like the greek letter) via Ventus and Vanitas. As for Sora and Terra's strength, blow for blow, not only were Terra's attacks more finessed, but also dealt much more damage. He also carried much more health. Sora is the overall better warrior, mostly because of the derivation of strength from his own pure heart. But there is a big difference between being the better warrior and being the stronger.
I would say that Terra's attacks doing more damage could be attributed to him being a bonus boss. Having the HP of your Player Character doesn't exactly make for a good boss fight. In fact, that's pretty much WHY Sora's attacks appear to do so little damage. On closer examination, when Sora is at "full power", so to speak (Critical Mode, 80+ Attack), his finishers take off well over a bar of health from Terra. That's not even counting his solo Limit, Trinity, which takes off roughly two. Though Terra's attacks seem more impressive at first glance due to the fact that pretty much all of them end up reducing Sora to 1 HP, Sora also has only a fraction of Terra's health to begin with in gameplay.
Furthermore, looking at things from a storyline perspective, I simply don't remember Terra ever pulling off the stunts that Sora does, physically speaking. He does some impressive things in his own game, to be sure, but Sora's raw power is an extraordinary thing. He destroys no less than SIX skyscrapers with one swing of his sword. That sort of strength would put a lot of upper-tier Marvel superheroes to shame. Just as impressive is the fact that he can uppercut a thirty-foot tall dragon, which MUST weigh several tons at the very least, and send it flying into the air. What's more, he and Riku, together, are able to deflect hundreds of super lasers coming at them from all directions. That shows insane amounts of agility. In addition, during his fight against Xigbar, he moves so fast as to not be seen by the human eye and actually deflects a sniper's lasers back at him.
To use a Shounen anime example, I would say that Sora is like Ichigo from Bleach, while Terra is closer to the likes of Byakuya. Sora has incredible amounts of raw strength, speed, and durability, while Terra has a greater number of badass techniques at his disposal. In practice, each one has an advantage over the other and it ends up evening out. However, I can see Sora completely overtaking Terra in terms of power once he learns the finer aspects of using the Keyblade.
And course not every whole is going to be stronger than its nobody/heartless. however, it appears that the stronger the warrior when it fell, the stronger the creature created... but still not as strong as the original.
The Apprentices weren't really fighters at all, yet some of them produced powerful Nobodies.
Sora and Roxas were not physically in the same place. Roxas had already been absorbed. The entire fight was the resistance of Roxas' will still within Sora, since will is what give a Nobody its existence. Sora's however, overwhelmed Roxas. At which point Roxas was not simply "absorbed" but fully integrated.
Yes, but Sora couldn't have been using Roxas's strength in the fight because Roxas was standing right there fighting him. Even if it was in his mind, Roxas was still separate from Sora at that moment.